Let me help us have a reasonable, mature, and avoid the tribal BS that leads every discussion into the abyss.
We cannot help America grow and be a better people without discussing our differences truthfully. Facts and truth are required to find solutions all can commit to.
Bottom line: the argument SHOULD be about spending, not about employment and means of production, true Socialism, going under Government management. The arguments should NOT be
The argument SHOULD be about socialist policies and spending and needs, recognizing socialist policies have been part of America since Social Security the 1930s, more recently the Affordable Care Act, a more extreme 2019 Democrat Green New Deal, and some proposals of presidential candidates like Medicare for All, free college tuition, tax the elite rich more (the 1%), debt forgiveness, AS WELL AS GOP proposed socialist ideas and actions like subsidies for farmers and tax cuts for corporations and the rich, bigger/huge DoD budgets, and a new public works project worth ~$1,000,000,000,000 called "Infrastructure."
Our goal is to avoid BS and uninformed stupid, inflammatory, conversation using false equivalency.
To start, socialist policies have been with us since before the 1930s as Social Security. It's in the NAME, "Social" security.
Look at the history of Democratic Socialism, as distinguished from Socialism and socialist Democratic and Republican policies in the USA.
"Democratic socialism"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism
"In the term democratic socialism, the adjective “democratic” is used to distinguish democratic socialists from Marxist–Leninist inspired socialism which to many is viewed as being non-democratic or authoritarian in practice.[4][5] Democratic socialists oppose the Stalinist political system and Soviet economic model, rejecting the perceived authoritarian form of governance and highly centralised command economy that took form in the Soviet Union and other socialist states in the early 20th century.[6]
Democratic socialism is distinguished from social democracy on the basis that democratic socialists are committed to systemic transformation of the economy from capitalism to socialism using governmental means, whereas social democrats are opposed to ultimately ending capitalism, and are instead supportive of progressive reforms to capitalism.[7] In contrast to social democrats, democratic socialists believe that reforms aimed at addressing social inequalities and state interventions aimed at suppressing the economic contradictions of capitalism will only see them emerge elsewhere in a different guise. Democratic socialists believe that the systemic issues of capitalism can only be solved by replacing the capitalist economic system with socialism—i.e. by replacing private ownership with collective ownership of the means of production, and extending democracy to the economic sphere.[3][8]"
Why would anyone want to change the US form of capitalism? Because our form of capitalism is extremely discriminatory against the poor.
"History of the socialist movement in the United States"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_socialist_movement_in_the_United_States
"Socialism in the United States began with utopian communities in the early 19th century such as the Shakers, the activist visionary Josiah Warren and intentional communities inspired by Charles Fourier. Labor activists—usually British, German, or Jewish immigrants—founded the Socialist Labor Party in 1877. The Socialist Party of America was established in 1901. By that time, anarchism also established itself around the country while socialists of different tendencies were involved in early American labor organizations and struggles which reached a high point in the Haymarket affair in Chicago which started International Workers' Day as the main workers holiday around the world (except in the United States, which celebrates Labor Day on the first Monday of September) and making the 8-hour day a worldwide objective by workers organizations and socialist parties worldwide.[1] "
KEY POINT: SOCIALIST IDEAS HAVE BEEN PART OF AMERICAN POLITICS AND OUR DEMOCRACY, GOVERNMENT, AND CAPITALISM ARE STILL THRIVING. WE ARE NOT VENEZUALA, RUSSIA, EAST GERMANY, CHINA, OR ANY OTHER FAILED OR DISRUPTIVE SOCIALIST COUNTRY.
"Democratic Socialists of America"
"What is Democratic Socialism?
Democratic socialists believe that both the economy and society should be run democratically—to meet public needs, not to make profits for a few. To achieve a more just society, many structures of our government and economy must be radically transformed through greater economic and social democracy so that ordinary Americans can participate in the many decisions that affect our lives.
Democracy and socialism go hand in hand. All over the world, wherever the idea of democracy has taken root, the vision of socialism has taken root as well—everywhere but in the United States. Because of this, many false ideas about socialism have developed in the US.
https://www.dsausa.org/about-us/what-is-democratic-socialism/
Democratic Socialism: Most Americans are too self-absorbed, and want more for themselves rather than help others, so this is a hard sell.
But, in case there are enough Americans who will help those who need help, we need to recognize extreme BS when anyone suggests any politician in the US wants to bring bad socialism to our country, and eliminate capitalism as we know it. That is a stupid thing to say. It is childish too.
We cannot discuss programs that help Americans unless we ditch the kind of crap dished out by this "Professor."
"Venezuela's descent into poverty followed socialism's pattern" [Extreme BS interview.]
By Paul Best Published May 03, 2019FBN Show Content - FOX Business
https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/socialist-venezuelas-poverty-socialism
"Venezuela [Why are we talking about this disastrous country?] was once the richest country in Latin America, but in recent years the socialist Opens a New Window. country has been plagued by poverty, a lack of medicine, rampant inflation, and rolling power blackouts.
“First of all, you’ve got to convince the people in your country that it’s all going to be different this time. This is the recipe time and again for socialism,” he said on FOX Business' Kennedy Opens a New Window. Thursday. “We see it fails here, there, and everywhere, but the way we’re going to do it is going to be just fine.”
[Idiotic logic of a Fox talking "expert" using FALSE EQUIVALENCY! It is useless to talk to this guy . . . ]
"Brenberg warned that the rhetoric in America right now [Rhetoric? Brenberg is using rhetoric and false analogies. Socialist ideas are not new in America - see history of Democratic Socialists in USA!] that demonizes wealth and private business is dangerous.
“You look at Elizabeth Warren, you look at Bernie Sanders, you look at many others in the 2020 race, and they are out there saying, ‘Billionaires are evidence of immorality.’ Where else have you heard that? You have heard that in Venezuela. And that’s the beginning then of policies that say, ‘Get out. We’re going to push you out, we’re going to nationalize these industries.”"
No, wrong. The IMPACT of the super rich elites paying more taxes is ZERO!
It's the middle class and poor who are hurt by tax increases, NOT THE RICH!
"Brenberg [Idiotic! FALSE EQUIVALENCY! Misleading! Deception! Propaganda! Trumpist "playlist!" Frustrating stupidity from a professor!] warned that the rhetoric in America right now that demonizes wealth and private business is dangerous.
“You look at Elizabeth Warren, you look at Bernie Sanders, you look at many others in the 2020 race, and they are out there saying, ‘Billionaires are evidence of immorality.’ Where else have you heard that? You have heard that in Venezuela. And that’s the beginning then of policies that say, ‘Get out. We’re going to push you out, we’re going to nationalize these industries.”
Argue facts and truth and I am with you. Socialist ideas have a long history in America so do NOT try to frame every socialist idea as East German or Venezuela! Neither of these countries are examples of what the Democrats are talking about.
Professor Brenberg might have read Atlas Shrugged, or not, but saying what he says about Warren is stupid. Warren wants to increase taxes on ultra rich people, so what? The ultra rich will not feel any increase in taxation Warren is talking about. It's about the impact, nothing less, of a tax increase, NOT THE AMOUNT OF TAXES
In any case, no Democrat proposes eliminating smart businesses, or government ownership of the means of production. None! Nada! Zero.
"Objectivism (Ayn Rand)" [Any wrote Atlas Shrugged to detail her philosophy of "Objectivism."]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_(Ayn_Rand)
In my ultra simplistic view, Objectivism in Atlas Shrugged relates to capitalism in that we must allow smart people to do what they want to make money fairly, honestly, and without government's corrupt influence. What follows is the complex version. Example:
"According to Rand, "man's mind will not function at the point of a gun."[68] Therefore, the only type of organized human behavior consistent with the operation of reason is that of voluntary cooperation."
Complex stuff . . . so I will leave it to you to go read about her views re capitalism.
"Objectivism is a philosophical system developed by Russian-American writer Ayn Rand. Rand first expressed Objectivism in her fiction, most notably The Fountainhead (1943) and Atlas Shrugged (1957), and later in non-fiction essays and books.[1] Leonard Peikoff, a professional philosopher and Rand's designated intellectual heir,[2][3] later gave it a more formal structure. Rand described Objectivism as "the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute".[4] Peikoff characterizes Objectivism as a "closed system" that is not subject to change.[5]
